Santa Fe (CM - 2007-12) :: 2009 - Loss Of Power When Engine Is Under Load At Highway Speeds
Feb 18, 2010
We have had had our Santa Fe for a year, done 38000 km and love it. The car will start up and drive around town fine but as soon as the engine is under load at highway speeds or driving up a hill it loses all power.
In Automatic when this happens the gear will drop back to third. You can switch it over to manual mode and slowly accelerate back up to around 80-90km/hour with your foot flat to the floor but the rpm don't get above around 2000 to 3000.
If you stop and turn the engine off for a minute or so, when you start again everything will appear to back to normal but after another minute or two the problem will be back. The engine malfunction light comes on and sometime it's flashing but at other times it's constant.
The car's been in at our local Hyundai dealer for a week but at this stage they still can't quite figure out the exact cause of the problem. The code they pulled out suggested it was the exhaust particulate filter (apparently quite an expensive part) so they replaced that but it didn't fix it. They've also replaced the fuel filter and some temperature sensors that are part of the particulate filter apparently but still no joy.
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I am using a Hyundai Santa Fe (Petrol, 2011 Model) here in Saudi Arabia. On July 17 (11:30 pm), I was driving in a highway at about 80-90 kms/hr when suddenly my vehicle lost power (steering wheel, brake, etc).
Baed on the diagnosis of our company mechanic, it was an alternator problem. He said the alternator bearing got stuck up.
Prior to this incident, on July 7, the same vehicle got stalled twice while it's parked. In the first case, I was able to use it after jumpstarting. In the second case in the same day (4 hours after the first case), jump starting didn't work so they have to replace it with a temporary used battery. I noticed that I had a hard start (the engine responds only after 3-4 key ignition). After replacing the battery with new one, I was able to drive normally from July 9 to Jul 17, and then the incident happened as I described in the first paragraph.
Question: Is there a way to detect the alternator bearing problem before it actually breaks down? If there is, what procedure or predictive test is normally followed to identify potential problems in an alternator?
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The primary electric fuel pump in the fuel tank of my 2004 W12 failed last month, shortly after I had set out on a cross-Canada trip from Vancouver Island to Toronto. The whole process of diagnosing and identifying the cause of the problem, mitigating it so that I could continue the trip, and finally replacing the fuel pump was kind of complex, so, here's the write-up.
The problem presented itself as a surging of the engine - a momentary loss of power - at normal highway operating speeds. The onset was progressive, but it didn't take very long - only about 60 miles of driving - from the first little cough of the engine until total failure of the pump. The first indication was failure of the car to maintain speed (while on cruise control) when climbing hills. That progressed to failure to maintain speed on flat surfaces, and finally led to the car coasting to a stop, engine stalled, at the side of the road.
I soon learned that if I floored the accelerator pedal and held it against the floor, the car would cough and burp for a few seconds, then take off like a rocket. So, for the next 40 miles, I coaxed the car into the next city by flooring it, accelerating to about 80 MPH, then coasting until the speed dropped to 20 MPH, and flooring it once again and accelerating to 80 MPH. Fortunately, I was on a remote road with few other cars, and no police.
I checked the fuses for the two fuel pumps - fuses 34 and 35 in panel C (above the left battery), and they were both OK.
The next day, I visited a VW dealer in the Canadian Rocky Mountains, and together with the parts manager and one of the technicians, we looked at the Self-Study Guides (SSGs) for the Phaeton, and looked at wiring diagrams. Eventually, we came to a tentative conclusion that the primary electric fuel pump in the fuel tank had failed. The SSGs stated that the primary electric fuel pump (the pump on the right side of the car) operates all the time, and the secondary electric fuel pump (the pump on the left side of the car) only operates during starting and during 'periods of high demand'. That made sense to us - the car started fine, and worked OK when the accelerator pedal was held to the floor (high demand). It just didn't work worth a darn at any other time... the engine would stall, or, the car would not accelerate at all.
Here are two illustrations taken from the SSGs that describe how the fuel delivery system works. The first image is taken from the 'Phaeton Overview' SSG, which applies to all vehicles. The second image is taken from the W12 engine SSG. I kind of suspect that all the Phaetons operate in the same way, regardless of engine, because the fuel tank in all the Phaetons has the same shape - two lower lobes, which means two pumps are required.
Descriptions from the SSGs
I think that there may be an error in the description above. My experience suggests that the right hand pump (identified as G6, above) is the primary pump, and the left hand pump (identified as G23) is the one that switches on during starting and periods of high demand. Note also how the identification of G6 and G23 in the illustration above is reversed from what is shown in the illustration below. I believe that the text and illustration below is correct, and the text and illustration above is incorrect.
The 'effects of failure' in the description above would, I believe, make sense if it was the left-hand pump that failed. In my case, the right hand pump failed, and the effects of failure that I experienced were as I set them out in the beginning paragraphs of this post - quite different from the 'effects of failure' of the left hand pump that are described in the SSG above.
After coming to the tentative diagnosis that the primary electric fuel pump (the right hand pump) had failed, we checked the parts stock status in North America. There was one pump in stock, but it was in the United States, and being that it was a Thursday, the pump could not be delivered before the following Tuesday. I didn't want to spend that much time waiting for it, so, we started thinking about other possible solutions.
If we could somehow get the secondary electric fuel pump - the pump on the left side of the car that only operated during starting and heavy demand - to operate, that just might put me back on the road again. So, I removed the plastic cover from the small relay that operates the secondary pump, and wrapped a rubber band around the relay, thus keeping the relay in the closed position. A short test drive proved that this solution worked just fine, the car once again operated normally. The only "problem" was that the last 25% of the fuel in the tank would be unusable, because that fuel would be left behind in the right-hand lobe of the tank - the lobe with the defective primary fuel pump.
Electric Fuel Pump Relays
Here is an illustration from the Phaeton wiring diagrams identifying the various relays above the left battery.
Here you can see the two relays for the electric fuel pumps. They are identical part numbers.
Here you can see the relay for the secondary electric fuel pump, with a rubber band wrapped around it to keep it continually closed.
Aside from the loss of use of the last 25% of the fuel in the fuel tank, the car worked just fine with the secondary electric fuel pump running all the time. There were no problems noted even under heavy acceleration. It was, however, necessary to physically remove the rubber-banded relay from its position in the relay panel whenever the car was shut down for more than half a hour. The power to this relay comes from Terminal 30 (battery direct) - it is not switched on and off with the ignition as Terminal 15 power is. This meant that if the rubber-banded relay was left in position overnight, the left hand battery would totally discharge, because the fuel pump would operate continuously all night. I discovered this the morning after the first night...
So, for the next 8 days, I drove across Canada, removing the relay each night and replacing it each morning. I didn't bother to remove it when I stopped for meals or fuel. The rest of the 3,000 mile trip was uneventful - except once, when I let the fuel tank run down a bit too close to the 1/4 full mark, and the car began surging again because the left hand lobe of the fuel tank (with the functional secondary pump) had emptied out. That was a close call, but I managed to get to a gas station and refuel.
After arriving in Toronto, I called the parts staff at my home VW dealer and ordered a new primary electric fuel pump. I discovered that the left and right hand pumps are slightly different (the various hoses coming out of the pumps are different), and I also discovered that a pump costs about $400. The parts staff suggested I order two seals (one for each side of the tank), because I would have to remove both the right and left fuel tank covers to change the right pump. The seals were not expensive.
Here are two pictures that illustrate where the pumps sit in each lobe of the fuel tank. Note the fuel filler port on the left side of the pictures (as we know, it is on the right side of the car) for orientation.
Phaeton Fuel Tank, showing pumps
Fuel Pump Access Panels
Below is a picture that shows where the access panels to the two fuel pumps are. It's easy to get to these access panels, just remove the carpeted panel from the floor of the trunk.
Here's a close-up of the right side (primary) electric fuel pump access panel.
The instructions (from the VW Repair Manual, or the ELSA / ErWin system) for replacing the fuel pump are quite well written. The repair manual suggests that the fuel tank be drained before replacing a pump. I didn't want to drain the tank, so, I ran the fuel level down as low as I dared (remembering that 1/4 full is effectively 'empty' with a failed primary pump). That proved to be adequate.
There are a heck of a lot of steps involved in disconnecting all the hoses and loosening the various components before the pump can be removed. I strongly suggest that anyone attempting this task have a printed set of instructions before starting disassembly.
The fuel pump has quite a few hoses and connections on it, but fortunately, each connector is unique in design, thus it is not possible to hook things up the wrong way when installing the new pump. It is possible to 'lose' a hose inside the tank... for this reason, I attached a small piece of string to each hose I disconnected from the pump.
The process goes more or less like this:
1) Remove the two 404 relays, to ensure no power is sent to either fuel pump.
2) Lift the rubber cover, and remove the electrical connections from both pumps (left and right).
3) Using a special tool, lift up the three fasteners that hold the cap over top of the access panel (these are NOT threaded fasteners!)
Here is a side view of the three fasteners that hold the plastic cap in place - they are friction fit, not threaded.
4) Now you have a clear view of the access panel. It will probably be dusty and rusty, and should be vacuumed clean before proceeding, to prevent crap from falling into the fuel tank when the cap is removed. The rust is due to condensation forming on the cold metal part whenever the car is filled with cold fuel from an underground storage tank.
5) A special VW tool is used to remove the locking ring from the access panel.
6) After removing the locking ring, I buffed it up with a wire brush to remove surface corrosion.
7) The plastic access cap can now be lifted. There are two electrical connectors on each fuel pump, but three possible fittings on the plastic cap. Fortunately, the three fittings are keyed differently.
8) This is what you see inside the tank after removing the plastic cap.
9) After following all the detailed instructions for disconnecting and stowing hoses, disconnecting the fuel measurement probe from the pump housing, etc., it is possible to lift the pump out. It will be full of fuel.
10) The old and new pumps, side by side. I was very surprised at the amount of crap that was trapped in the filter screen at the bottom of the pump. The car only has 60,000 miles on it, and I have always used premium fuel in it.
11) I was also a bit surprised at the discolouration of the pump components. Below you can see the old and new pumps side by side.
12) It is necessary to get access to the opposite side (in this case, the left side) fuel pump, because hoses from each pump travel horizontally across the tank and connect to the other pump.
13) Here you can see a new hose from the right side pump connecting into a T fitting above the left side pump. It is easy to thread this hose across the top of the inside of the tank.
14) As mentioned earlier, there are three possible fittings on the base of each plastic cap, but only two connectors within the fuel tank. Everything is keyed, thus improper assembly is not possible.
Once the new pump has been installed, the hoses connected, and the fuel measuring probe reset into the side of the new pump, re-assembly of everything is quite straightforward. I replaced the rubber ring around the access panel opening on each side of the tank, and I also buffed up the locking rings using a wire brush (to remove corrosion) on each side.
It was not a pleasant job - your hands get covered in fuel, and there are some hazards associated with working on an open fuel tank with vapour escaping, but it is not a particularly difficult job. It is time-consuming, though.
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The car started rough idling and a few weeks ago while driving "lost power" momentarily. I went to take a look at it and even just idling it will randomly drop 1000 rpm, or when the gas is one in P it does the same thing. also the dash lights dim at the same time.
I pulled these codes (below). I cleared the codes and tried to replicate with no luck. The car had been sitting in a parking lot outside for a few days and it has been -15C. I asked if it seemed to only happen when it was warm (the week before it was +10C) and they said yes. It has been another week (still cold) and the codes have not returned.
Quick google of these codes suggests maybe a throttle position sensor and/or loose battery connection.
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When I start the engine it works fine while the motor is cold (idle normal all smooth). When the engine the temperature reach normal operating range the car loose power and idle drops to 350-500 rpm and if i am driving I can not go over 40mi/h. I drive a 2008 Sta Fe now with 96000 KM (~~60000 miles). A month ago the engine start shaking severely and knocking noise (like some spark plugs where not working), from this to now:
Changed all sparks plugs
Changed all ignition coils
Now this situation looks more related to temperature of the engine.
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On my '03 Santa Fe 2.7, this has happened twice, with 500 or so uneventful miles in between. At highway speed, it just all of a sudden loses power and will only go about 50 mph with accelerator to the floor. When you stop & put in neutral, it only revs to about 3000 rpm, with pedal to the floor -yet idles fine. Then when you shut it down, wait a few minutes & start it back up, it's fine. Is this a fuel problem or what?
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Question about my 2012 Hyundai Santa Fe SE. The car has 25,000 miles on it, and just recently like in the last 1,000 miles I have notice when I use the AC, or even the air without the AC the engine reacts very poorly like it is under extremely heavy load. The car shakes and vibrates.
I completely understand that in AC mode, the compressor kicks in, but this to me seems excessive. The car vibrates and the idle drops substantially. AC on is worse that no AC.
In addition, idle or under 35 is worse that HWY driving. The vibration is so pronounced that I sometimes wont turn the AC or air on as the vehicle feels like it is going to rip itself apart.
This is something new and never vibrated this much before the 25,000 miles. Anything I should look into or have the Hyundai Dealer look into? What I may be over looking? Would more stout battery work?
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Driving 30 mph, oil light came on, immediate loss of power braking and steering. Engine did not stop, oil light disappeared yet still had loss of power steering and brakes. Still in D. Policeman had to stand on brake pedal to get into Park so that engine could be turned off. Towed to dealer in next state and dealer said cannot replicate so cannot fix.
Car is 2012 Santa Fe w/ less than 6,000 miles on it.
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What's happening with my Santa Fe (3.5L AWD). In the past couple of weeks I'm seeing poorer fuel economy (about 15% worse) and the vehicle feels like it is down on power, especially in fifth gear. I mean, the vehicle works and some might not notice, but... There are no warning lights. Engine oil is slightly high (1/4 inch or less) and transmission oil appears to be correctly filled. Don't see leaks from this vehicle on the driveway.
I had an oil change about 3 weeks ago, at a Hyundai dealership, where I switched from regular to synthetic. I was told that no special procedure was required in making that switch, so none was done. About two weeks ago, the stereo system was dead one day. Would not turn on at all. In trying to troubleshoot I pulled the Audio and Radio fuses (there seemed to be three in the dash area), but they were fine and after I reinstalled them the radio worked again. Those are the only maintenance and other issues I've seen in months.
The vehicle has pretty new rear brakes and I don't feel unusual heat there. Could the switch over in oil types or electrical issue with the radio be related? I've done many hundreds of miles since both events.
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My wife has had her 2010 3.5 Santa Fe since new. Over the past year it's been having a clunk develop when accelerating, happening a few times from a start until highway speed. The clunks almost feel as if one is driving over bumps - that's what I thought at first. The power doesn't seem to be there anymore either. I have been driving her vehicle the past three years and it was fine when I first started driving it. But the past couple years I first noticed a problem and it seems it is getting progressively worse. My wife now notices it quite a bit too.
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2009 LS460 I have had my car at the dealer a few times for loss of power on acceleration. The last visit which lasted three weeks finally gave a diagnoses. The problem was confirmed by the dealer and the factory reps, a knock sensor picks up a signal that retards the timing resulting in no power, I was nearly run over by a semi the last time it happened. They tried to give me my car back on 7/24/14 with the knowledge that the problem is not fixable at this time but I should drive the car and they will tell me when there is a fix. I left the car at the dealer. I was also told that they had a few others with the same problem that could not be fixed.
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I've been noticing some weird, very subtle engine sound changes while driving at highway speeds lately. Something almost like surging, but not. I don't know how to describe it. I might try to make an audio recording next time I take it out so I can explain it.
Anyway, I don't know why but ICP popped into my head. Maybe, for some reason, the engine was varying ICP causing the surging sounds.
So I hooked up AE and did a test. I've attached a screen shot.
With my idle speed actuated as high as it will go, and ICP actuated as high as it can go, I can only get a pressure of about 1450 PSI. I always thought ICP should go higher than that. I seem to recall reading somewhere around 3600 PSI.
So am I misinformed, am I reading the data wrong or do I have a problem? How high should Injector Control Pressure go? I missed it in the screen shot, but ICP is actuated to 100%.
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I have a 1999 F350 200,000 miles. Now getting an intermittent engine light. Still runs well, although once or twice I felt a momentary surge at highway speeds. The light is on intermittently about 1/2 time. I read the codes and the following codes, as in the thread title, came up:
P0280 - ICP circuit out of range - low
P0113 - intake air temp sensor circuit - high input
P0470 - Exhaust back pressure sensor circuit malfunction
P0478 - Exhaust pressure control valve - high input
What would make these all code at the same time? Would these not make a noticeable problem driving? And how do I resolve these?
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