Ford 6.0L Power Stroke Diesel :: Subtle Engine Sound Changes While Driving At Highway Speeds - Surging
Feb 8, 2016
I've been noticing some weird, very subtle engine sound changes while driving at highway speeds lately. Something almost like surging, but not. I don't know how to describe it. I might try to make an audio recording next time I take it out so I can explain it.
Anyway, I don't know why but ICP popped into my head. Maybe, for some reason, the engine was varying ICP causing the surging sounds.
So I hooked up AE and did a test. I've attached a screen shot.
With my idle speed actuated as high as it will go, and ICP actuated as high as it can go, I can only get a pressure of about 1450 PSI. I always thought ICP should go higher than that. I seem to recall reading somewhere around 3600 PSI.
So am I misinformed, am I reading the data wrong or do I have a problem? How high should Injector Control Pressure go? I missed it in the screen shot, but ICP is actuated to 100%.
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I have a 45 min drive to work every day, all highway. Lately on the way home in the afternoon I have been experiencing a surging noise that seems to just happen while I'm doing hwy speeds. It sounds to me like the fan is tuning on and off. Is that possible? It comes on for a few min. And then off again. I have new icp ipr cps. New oil and filter and fuel filter.
Also I'm still having a battery light on and off issue while I'm driving. Is possible the two issues are connected. I plane on doing extensive search for a bad wire this weekend. Batteries and alternator have checked out and are fairly new.
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A few weeks ago i had a surging idle issue very intermittently, and it went away for a while so i stopped thinking about it. Just got back from a weekend in vermont, about 130 miles each way, and i noticed as soon as i got to vermont and came to a stop sign it was surging, and when i just got home it was surging again. Why would this have picked back up after long stretches of running for a while? Runs great as far as i know, just have this surging idle for some reason.
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The primary electric fuel pump in the fuel tank of my 2004 W12 failed last month, shortly after I had set out on a cross-Canada trip from Vancouver Island to Toronto. The whole process of diagnosing and identifying the cause of the problem, mitigating it so that I could continue the trip, and finally replacing the fuel pump was kind of complex, so, here's the write-up.
The problem presented itself as a surging of the engine - a momentary loss of power - at normal highway operating speeds. The onset was progressive, but it didn't take very long - only about 60 miles of driving - from the first little cough of the engine until total failure of the pump. The first indication was failure of the car to maintain speed (while on cruise control) when climbing hills. That progressed to failure to maintain speed on flat surfaces, and finally led to the car coasting to a stop, engine stalled, at the side of the road.
I soon learned that if I floored the accelerator pedal and held it against the floor, the car would cough and burp for a few seconds, then take off like a rocket. So, for the next 40 miles, I coaxed the car into the next city by flooring it, accelerating to about 80 MPH, then coasting until the speed dropped to 20 MPH, and flooring it once again and accelerating to 80 MPH. Fortunately, I was on a remote road with few other cars, and no police.
I checked the fuses for the two fuel pumps - fuses 34 and 35 in panel C (above the left battery), and they were both OK.
The next day, I visited a VW dealer in the Canadian Rocky Mountains, and together with the parts manager and one of the technicians, we looked at the Self-Study Guides (SSGs) for the Phaeton, and looked at wiring diagrams. Eventually, we came to a tentative conclusion that the primary electric fuel pump in the fuel tank had failed. The SSGs stated that the primary electric fuel pump (the pump on the right side of the car) operates all the time, and the secondary electric fuel pump (the pump on the left side of the car) only operates during starting and during 'periods of high demand'. That made sense to us - the car started fine, and worked OK when the accelerator pedal was held to the floor (high demand). It just didn't work worth a darn at any other time... the engine would stall, or, the car would not accelerate at all.
Here are two illustrations taken from the SSGs that describe how the fuel delivery system works. The first image is taken from the 'Phaeton Overview' SSG, which applies to all vehicles. The second image is taken from the W12 engine SSG. I kind of suspect that all the Phaetons operate in the same way, regardless of engine, because the fuel tank in all the Phaetons has the same shape - two lower lobes, which means two pumps are required.
Descriptions from the SSGs
I think that there may be an error in the description above. My experience suggests that the right hand pump (identified as G6, above) is the primary pump, and the left hand pump (identified as G23) is the one that switches on during starting and periods of high demand. Note also how the identification of G6 and G23 in the illustration above is reversed from what is shown in the illustration below. I believe that the text and illustration below is correct, and the text and illustration above is incorrect.
The 'effects of failure' in the description above would, I believe, make sense if it was the left-hand pump that failed. In my case, the right hand pump failed, and the effects of failure that I experienced were as I set them out in the beginning paragraphs of this post - quite different from the 'effects of failure' of the left hand pump that are described in the SSG above.
After coming to the tentative diagnosis that the primary electric fuel pump (the right hand pump) had failed, we checked the parts stock status in North America. There was one pump in stock, but it was in the United States, and being that it was a Thursday, the pump could not be delivered before the following Tuesday. I didn't want to spend that much time waiting for it, so, we started thinking about other possible solutions.
If we could somehow get the secondary electric fuel pump - the pump on the left side of the car that only operated during starting and heavy demand - to operate, that just might put me back on the road again. So, I removed the plastic cover from the small relay that operates the secondary pump, and wrapped a rubber band around the relay, thus keeping the relay in the closed position. A short test drive proved that this solution worked just fine, the car once again operated normally. The only "problem" was that the last 25% of the fuel in the tank would be unusable, because that fuel would be left behind in the right-hand lobe of the tank - the lobe with the defective primary fuel pump.
Electric Fuel Pump Relays
Here is an illustration from the Phaeton wiring diagrams identifying the various relays above the left battery.
Here you can see the two relays for the electric fuel pumps. They are identical part numbers.
Here you can see the relay for the secondary electric fuel pump, with a rubber band wrapped around it to keep it continually closed.
Aside from the loss of use of the last 25% of the fuel in the fuel tank, the car worked just fine with the secondary electric fuel pump running all the time. There were no problems noted even under heavy acceleration. It was, however, necessary to physically remove the rubber-banded relay from its position in the relay panel whenever the car was shut down for more than half a hour. The power to this relay comes from Terminal 30 (battery direct) - it is not switched on and off with the ignition as Terminal 15 power is. This meant that if the rubber-banded relay was left in position overnight, the left hand battery would totally discharge, because the fuel pump would operate continuously all night. I discovered this the morning after the first night...
So, for the next 8 days, I drove across Canada, removing the relay each night and replacing it each morning. I didn't bother to remove it when I stopped for meals or fuel. The rest of the 3,000 mile trip was uneventful - except once, when I let the fuel tank run down a bit too close to the 1/4 full mark, and the car began surging again because the left hand lobe of the fuel tank (with the functional secondary pump) had emptied out. That was a close call, but I managed to get to a gas station and refuel.
After arriving in Toronto, I called the parts staff at my home VW dealer and ordered a new primary electric fuel pump. I discovered that the left and right hand pumps are slightly different (the various hoses coming out of the pumps are different), and I also discovered that a pump costs about $400. The parts staff suggested I order two seals (one for each side of the tank), because I would have to remove both the right and left fuel tank covers to change the right pump. The seals were not expensive.
Here are two pictures that illustrate where the pumps sit in each lobe of the fuel tank. Note the fuel filler port on the left side of the pictures (as we know, it is on the right side of the car) for orientation.
Phaeton Fuel Tank, showing pumps
Fuel Pump Access Panels
Below is a picture that shows where the access panels to the two fuel pumps are. It's easy to get to these access panels, just remove the carpeted panel from the floor of the trunk.
Here's a close-up of the right side (primary) electric fuel pump access panel.
The instructions (from the VW Repair Manual, or the ELSA / ErWin system) for replacing the fuel pump are quite well written. The repair manual suggests that the fuel tank be drained before replacing a pump. I didn't want to drain the tank, so, I ran the fuel level down as low as I dared (remembering that 1/4 full is effectively 'empty' with a failed primary pump). That proved to be adequate.
There are a heck of a lot of steps involved in disconnecting all the hoses and loosening the various components before the pump can be removed. I strongly suggest that anyone attempting this task have a printed set of instructions before starting disassembly.
The fuel pump has quite a few hoses and connections on it, but fortunately, each connector is unique in design, thus it is not possible to hook things up the wrong way when installing the new pump. It is possible to 'lose' a hose inside the tank... for this reason, I attached a small piece of string to each hose I disconnected from the pump.
The process goes more or less like this:
1) Remove the two 404 relays, to ensure no power is sent to either fuel pump.
2) Lift the rubber cover, and remove the electrical connections from both pumps (left and right).
3) Using a special tool, lift up the three fasteners that hold the cap over top of the access panel (these are NOT threaded fasteners!)
Here is a side view of the three fasteners that hold the plastic cap in place - they are friction fit, not threaded.
4) Now you have a clear view of the access panel. It will probably be dusty and rusty, and should be vacuumed clean before proceeding, to prevent crap from falling into the fuel tank when the cap is removed. The rust is due to condensation forming on the cold metal part whenever the car is filled with cold fuel from an underground storage tank.
5) A special VW tool is used to remove the locking ring from the access panel.
6) After removing the locking ring, I buffed it up with a wire brush to remove surface corrosion.
7) The plastic access cap can now be lifted. There are two electrical connectors on each fuel pump, but three possible fittings on the plastic cap. Fortunately, the three fittings are keyed differently.
8) This is what you see inside the tank after removing the plastic cap.
9) After following all the detailed instructions for disconnecting and stowing hoses, disconnecting the fuel measurement probe from the pump housing, etc., it is possible to lift the pump out. It will be full of fuel.
10) The old and new pumps, side by side. I was very surprised at the amount of crap that was trapped in the filter screen at the bottom of the pump. The car only has 60,000 miles on it, and I have always used premium fuel in it.
11) I was also a bit surprised at the discolouration of the pump components. Below you can see the old and new pumps side by side.
12) It is necessary to get access to the opposite side (in this case, the left side) fuel pump, because hoses from each pump travel horizontally across the tank and connect to the other pump.
13) Here you can see a new hose from the right side pump connecting into a T fitting above the left side pump. It is easy to thread this hose across the top of the inside of the tank.
14) As mentioned earlier, there are three possible fittings on the base of each plastic cap, but only two connectors within the fuel tank. Everything is keyed, thus improper assembly is not possible.
Once the new pump has been installed, the hoses connected, and the fuel measuring probe reset into the side of the new pump, re-assembly of everything is quite straightforward. I replaced the rubber ring around the access panel opening on each side of the tank, and I also buffed up the locking rings using a wire brush (to remove corrosion) on each side.
It was not a pleasant job - your hands get covered in fuel, and there are some hazards associated with working on an open fuel tank with vapour escaping, but it is not a particularly difficult job. It is time-consuming, though.
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1995 3.0L 6 Cylinder Aero, aka the Green Goblin.
I've recently noticed that when I'm running between 50-65MPH the GG can't seem to decide whether it wants to stay in D or OD, I think. It's hard to tell whether or not the transmission is shifting or if it's just the engine revving. I don't have a tachometer but it's almost like the engine is revving /surges and then falls back, sometimes repeatedly. Could this be due to a vac line leak?
History- GG has 167K on it. I recently changed the oil, plugs, wires, distributor and air filter. Cleaned the MAF. Due to a failed AC compressor and low funds, had it removed and a bypass pulley installed. Needs a new pipe & muffler which is on the agenda.
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I have a 2005 6.0. I just got done doing the HPOP seals, injector o-rings, stand pipes and dummy plugs. I have drove the truck 600 miles since the work with no problems other than a wiring issue I got fixed...
I was driving at highway speeds, and all of a sudden I lost power and got a shake when trying to accelerate. I pulled over and turned it off, and when I went to restart it I got nothing at first, then it went to what seemed like a partial crank followed by a thud. So I'm thinking I just hydro locked it. I waited a few mins and tried again, and it started but had a few knocks for 15 seconds or so, then it ran rough with smoke pouring out of the exhaust (grey then turned kinda white).
I the only codes I have are for the egr which I've had unplugged for a long time, and a glow plug code, but when I started it back up, I had no codes. I'm baffled. I did notice I have oil on my oil filter housing at the cap, a little oil had slung on to my wire harness and my intake. I don't even know where to begin!
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2003 f-350 6.0 4wd dual rear wheels
4 inch superlift suspension lift, dual shock steering Stabilizer
33 inch wheels.
4 inch turbo back exhaust
Other than that it's really bone stock
Here's what's going on. In 2wd, between 55mph and 62ish mph, once I hit a constant speed, a rumble beneath my feet emerges. If I either speed up or slow down, it immediately goes away.
Does the same thing in 4wd high.
I can eliminate front drive shaft and u joints seeing as they shouldn't be turning while in 2wd. I did notice that when I push up or side to side motion in the front drive shaft, there is a click and a bit of motion. Is that normal? Just a side thought.
When i take off there's a bit of vibration from the rear half of the truck, but I've isolated that to the center support bearing. With all this being said, none of these symptoms were around before I lifted it.
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Since day one my 2016 F250 occasionally has a reed sounding vibration at highways speeds near the passenger side occupant handle on the windshield pillar. Talked to a service advisor at the dealer about it, what it could be, so this must not be a common problem . The issue is intermittent and can not be reproduced on demand. I tried blowing compressed air all around the area of the Windshield to see if I could reproduce the sound in a shop setting, but no luck. Only thing in common with this noise is 75+ MPH during a rather windy day. I'm a little reluctant to drop it off at the dealer since intermittent problems are hard to diagnose.
YouTube...
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A few weeks ago I got in my 2005 EX and started for work. As I idled in traffic, the engine started surging (it had never done this before). So I took it right to Ford and dropped it off before it got worse. Of course, they couldnt look at it until Monday (this was a Thursday), so I had to get a rental.
I get the call on Monday that the surging problem was an injector, but covered by my warranty. But, it seems that my EGR cooler was bad, but even more important was my blown head gasket.
WHAT?! My truck did NOT have a blown head gasket when I dropped it off. But thats besides the point. There was much back and forth between Ford and my warranty company, but finally I got them to cover the head gasket.
But, I had to pay for the EGR cooler. So I asked the Ford mechanic if I could supply him with an upgraded cooler, so I wouldn't have this issue in the future. He said no problem. I then told him I was going to buy a Bulletproof and he said no, get a delete kit. He said "I've done a number of these, and its really the best solution.". He even HEAVILY recommended the ADT Delete kit. He even said that since I have a 2005, we can just leave the EGR valve hooked up and I wouldn't have a CEL issue.
Fast forward several days. I picked up my EX last night and... CEL is on. I called and spoke to the mechanic and he told me that I must have an upgraded program, and that my only option is a tuner to turn off the EGR completely. He also told me that I don't need an expensive SCT or Bullydog just for the EGR.
Anyways, with all of the above setting of the stage complete, just wondering what my best option is here... Is there a simple/cheaper tuner I can use to just disable the EGR? Is it worth the money to get a more expensive tuner? For the most part, this is my daily driver and I don't need a performance or towing tune. I wouldn't mind better mileage, though
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Turbo is dead. I knew this day was coming. It died driving down the highway tonight at 55 MPH. Plenty of power since I left the office, all of a sudden the tone of the engine changed to a 6.0L and there was no power at my disposal.
Nursed it home keeping an eye on EGT's and let it soak while I ate supper.
Started it up, let it idle for a minute and tried a few revs but no boost and no turbo whistle.
Garage actually had a very slight haze to it after the test revs so something is broken.
DPF shouldn't be allowing any type of smoke to pass.
Bummer. Now I need a rental so I can get to the airport. Murphy's law has been in effect all day between software upgrades (IT stuff) and now my truck.
No CEL (this is shocking to me) but I found : P132B - Turbocharger/Supercharger Boost Control A Performance
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I just got back from a trip across the state to see the Miami boat show! Truck was running just fine on the trip over, EOT/ECT delta around 9* (seems a little high to me, Im hoping because im running 35's, but can someone back me up on this?)
On the trip back, cruising at 70, I noticed the check engine light went on... I didn't have it under heavy throttle or obscure circumstances... My ScanGauge 2 showed that I had a P0299, which as Ive read means something relating to underboost?
I cleared the code. And the CEL never showed again in the last 100 miles... Could this just be a quirk? Or should I be more worried about it?
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I have a 1999 F350 200,000 miles. Now getting an intermittent engine light. Still runs well, although once or twice I felt a momentary surge at highway speeds. The light is on intermittently about 1/2 time. I read the codes and the following codes, as in the thread title, came up:
P0280 - ICP circuit out of range - low
P0113 - intake air temp sensor circuit - high input
P0470 - Exhaust back pressure sensor circuit malfunction
P0478 - Exhaust pressure control valve - high input
What would make these all code at the same time? Would these not make a noticeable problem driving? And how do I resolve these?
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I have an 04 Elantra GT and have been noticing a jerkiness when driving at a constant speed on the highway. I haven't noticed it around town or while accelerating. I also have noticed that when I disengage the clutch on the highway, the engine sometimes doesn't respond right away, or it even may surge. This has happened when exiting the highway when I disengage the clutch. The engine will slow, then speed up close to 3000 rpms.
I also had a check engine light come on and couple months ago. The code indicated that the upstream O2 sensor was bad. I took it out and cleaned it, but didn't replace it. Is this a likely culprit for this set of symptoms? If so, how can I test the sensor to be sure? I heard that I could disconnect it and run the car and see if the surging lessens, but wasn't sure if that was a good thing to do.
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